The Minority Report! Diversity In The MU.

[aja_christopher]

Wrong. Shoreh Aghdashloo is Iranian.

And this further exemplifies the problem -- why would you cast a light-skinned Iranian to play as a darker-skinned Indian woman?

Shohreh-Aghdashloo.jpg

Or a lighter skinned Argentinian to play as a darker-skinned Brazilian?

In it's simplest form this is just another example of the old "paper bag" test -- if you are lighter than a "paper bag" then you are considered more 'acceptable' to the "mainstream".

Hollywood has a long history of seeking out lighter-skinned actors to portray people of color, and this is made even more apparent when they actually go out of their way to change the character from one race to another for the big screen.

And yes -- I apply the same logic when I see them change "white" characters to "black" characters. I understand that they are doing so primarily to address the issue of "diversity" but I think that they should just integrate more heroes of color into the films rather than "race-bending" characters that already exist (i.e. Falcon in the Avengers vs. Heimdall in Thor).

[Habis]

Correct-brazil has the largest number of black folks of recent african origin outside of africa in the world.

India has the largest number of blacks outside of africa,but most are not of recent africans.
The asians because these blacks been outside of africa before pre-history.

The black-skinned Indians are descended from the original inhabitants of India, who arrived there around 60,000 years ago, before light-skinned people even existed. At that time all Homo Sapiens were dark-skinned and lived in tropical or subtropical climates only (Africa, Middle East and South Asia).

Ur asking a dumb question.....what part of Black and Hispanic not being mutually exclusive do u not understand.

Being Hispanic only means that you come from a Spanish-speaking culture. There are White Hispanics, Black Hispanics, Native American Hispanics, Mixed Hispanics and even Asian Hispanics.

Being Latino means two things: Outside of US it means that you come from a culture that speaks a language that evolved from Latin, like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French, Romanian, Walloon, Catalan, Corsican and Sephardim, among others.

Inside of US Latino means that your ancestors come from Latin America, and it is considered a race, which is a dumb oversimplification, because there are many races living there.

[Marvell2100]

I really don't understand the debate against using actors/actresses who represent real life racial, sexual and ethnic make-up of these characters. What is wrong with wanting to see a Vietnamese actress play a Vietnamese character? Or a Black Brazilian actor playing a Black Brazilian character? I've heard the case being made about the best actor/actress for the role. Are we implying that there aren't any actors/actresses with these racial characteristics good enough to portray these characters? I find that impossible to believe.

And to make my position clear, I'm against race-bending characters. I was against the Torch being black as well as the Kingpin. I saw the previews for the new FF movie and it looks very good but I'd still rather see the Torch as a white male. Comics and other media need to do a better job of developing diverse characters so we don't have to race bend.

Now when it comes to a minority hero taking up the mantle of a white character, I have no problem with that at all. It's not race bending because they aren't changing the race of Steve Rogers, the ethnicity of Carol Danvers or the gender of Thor Odinson. These characters are still who they are. And history has a proven track record of superheroes being replaced by someone else.

[Trident]

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I really don't understand the debate against using actors/actresses who represent real life racial, sexual and ethnic make-up of these characters. What is wrong with wanting to see a Vietnamese actress play a Vietnamese character? Or a Black Brazilian actor playing a Black Brazilian character? I've heard the case being made about the best actor/actress for the role. Are we implying that there aren't any actors/actresses with these racial characteristics good enough to portray these characters? I find that impossible to believe.

And to make my position clear, I'm against race-bending characters. I was against the Torch being black as well as the Kingpin. I saw the previews for the new FF movie and it looks very good but I'd still rather see the Torch as a white male. Comics and other media need to do a better job of developing diverse characters so we don't have to race bend.

Now when it comes to a minority hero taking up the mantle of a white character, I have no problem with that at all. It's not race bending because they aren't changing the race of Steve Rogers, the ethnicity of Carol Danvers or the gender of Thor Odinson. These characters are still who they are. And history has a proven track record of superheroes being replaced by someone else.

[mace11]

The black-skinned Indians are descended from the original inhabitants of India, who arrived there around 60,000 years ago, before light-skinned people even existed. At that time all Homo Sapiens were dark-skinned and lived in tropical or subtropical climates only (Africa, Middle East and South Asia).

Right,and you made that point more clear.

[JohnLynch]

You're assuming that I'm fine with an Australian playing a Canadian or an African-American playing an American of European descent when in fact I've repeatedly said that I'd prefer that not be the case.

The fact you have a history of taking very extreme points of view doesn't change the fact that more reasonable people have stated they don't demand the level of conformity that you do. You aren't the only one complaining about race changing non white people to different ethnicities and nor does everyone who is complaining about such an occurence share your zeal for demanding such closeness to the source material.

I also note you didn't talk about the indonesian I know who looks chinese. Which ethnicity would she be allowed to portray? Her relatives are all clearly indonesian in appearance by the way.

[dragonmp93]

About Sunspot, i sincerelly prefer the White latino over the Black American.

[aja_christopher]

The fact you have a history of taking very extreme points of view doesn't change the fact that more reasonable people have stated they don't demand the level of conformity that you do. You aren't the only one complaining about race changing non white people to different ethnicities and nor does everyone who is complaining about such an occurence share your zeal for demanding such closeness to the source material.

I also note you didn't talk about the indonesian I know who looks chinese. Which ethnicity would she be allowed to portray? Her relatives are all clearly indonesian in appearance by the way.

I honestly don't know why you feel the need to argue with me when we both seem to want the same thing with regards to diversity (less race-bending and more original representation). Likewise, I fail to see where it is "extreme" to say that I think a Vietnamese actress should play a Vietnamese comic-book character or that an English actress should portray an English historical figure.

That said, if you want to argue with those "people" that you talk about in your post, then address it to them -- not to me.

With regards to your "Indonesian who looks Chinese" comment, I've already made my feelings clear on that repeatedly (in at least four separate posts) so if you aren't "reasonable" enough to understand my point of view by now -- even if you disagree with it -- then there's not much point in repeating myself just for the sake of extending an unnecessary argument.

[JohnLynch]

Your viewpoint is extreme. What if instead of Hugh Jackman they had gotten an American born actor with Canadian citizenship? Or are people not born in Canada not real Canadians? What if someone moved to Canada when they were 4 but never got naturalized? What about Hugo Weaving playing Red Skull? Should only Germans get to play genocidal maniacs? What about every Asgardian? Surely only Norweigians should be allowed to portray Viking gods, right? What about voice actors? Surely there should be no gender bending or nation swapping there either. Right?

You have taken an absurd point of view that seems completely out of touch with reality. I have also failed to see you answer the question I have posed to you regarding being Indonesian but looking chinese. Can you provide a link?

[Victor Freeman]

No, in the politest possible way: you are the one missing the issue. They turned a fictional, make-believe character of ink and thought and gave a job to a living, real Hispanic actor. One of those ranks far higher in the "importance" column. Would you really rather DoFP had three black actors and no Hispanic actors? (because let's be honest, if they only searched for a black Sunspot, do you REALLY think he'd be latino? Deep down; do you think that likely. When America is already not providing enough roles for the black male actors they have... come on). Hollywood's idea of looking for actors outside of America is go to Britain or France (and that's IF they look; which they mostly don't).


Firstly, Storm wasn't that great in the films because Berry sucked. The fault lies with her, she didn't embody the role. The script gave Storm tons of kick-ass, day saving moments, and dialogue pin-pointing the inner fierce goddess; Berry never understood it nor carried it. That lies with her. Second, that is a very biased description of Days of Future's Past. Yes they died a lot, so did ALL those heroes (male/female, POC/white, young/old); what matters is in the end = they did not die; in fact they were ALL brought back (they are alive and kicking and possible to use). What also matters is the "new team" (who are all contracted for more films, so hey = New Mutants anyone?) is very diverse. They could have done the standard superhero fare of all nearly white, including two women and one black guy. They didn't. They gave roles to numerous different ethnicities, while also providing jobs for several openly LGBT actors. That, to me, is a win!

Nah, Storm's role sucked. So much that Berry was about to quit. You can't rewrite history.

http://www.darkhorizons.com/features...the-last-stand

Berry insists that it had nothing to do with ego or wanting more screen time, but rather she wanted her X-Men character, Storm, "to have a point of view, and if she talks for five minutes then let it be five minutes about SOMETHING. Let her say something, let her fight more and let her be involved. So I was happy when I read this new script and when Brett came on he included Storm even more and I appreciated it." Berry had certain wish lists as to how Storm would evolve in what is likely this final chapter in the X-Men franchise, which has to do with an anti-mutant 'cure'

Despite this Storm still sucked, while Berry is to blame...she Shares that Blame.

[whiterabbit]

You're assuming that I'm fine with an Australian playing a Canadian or an African-American playing an American of European descent when in fact I've repeatedly said that I'd prefer that not be the case.

They you go on to claim that "the same people" have argued for replacing whites with people of color when -- AGAIN -- I've said that I don't prefer that either. In fact, I specifically stated that I'd rather see "black" Luke Cage in a film than a "black" Kingpin (or Heimdall, or Johnny Storm).

Likewise, I would not want to see characters like Sam Guthrie or Rahne cast as non-white characters, as -- AGAIN -- I'd like them to stick as closely as possible to the original story, and I don't see why people should have an issue with trying to find someone who most closely matches the creator's vision (racially or otherwise), which has already proven itself successful enough to be adapted into a film or a series.

The ironic thing is that the New Mutants is one of the few series that already has quite a bit of diversity thrown in (Native American, Afro-Brazilian, Scottish, Vietnamese, Russian, etc) so "race-bending" in this situation makes very little sense.

With regards to other franchises, Wolverine is a 5' 3" Canadian and Magneto should be Jewish -- I've never once indicated that I think that it ok that they are presented (or cast) otherwise in the films, so let's not make this something it is not.

And clearly there are degrees of this at work: Cate Blanchett as the Queen of England works to a certain degree because Australians are direct descendants of the English and she is an exceptional actress... but I STILL would have preferred that they cast an actual English woman for the role.



It's very easy to claim that representation doesn't matter when you already have it -- a person who already has plenty of water to drink is not going to claim that he or she is thirsty, and likewise those who already have representation often don't understand what it is like not to have said (positive) representation in our media.

And yes, many people do more closely connect with characters who share their same culture or background -- read the letters from many Pakastani and/or Muslim individuals in the letters section of Ms. Marvel to see just one example of this.

I'll ask you in return -- why is is a problem for a person to claim that they'd like to see heroes who better reflect the diversity found in our society and the world abroad?

What if the representation is either stereotypical, offensive, or negative towards the diversity extension? They changed Wally West into a black thug who wears hoodies, calls people chump, gets in trouble, and graffiti's walls. None of those things existed before the reboot and are a terrible representation on race. M is a muslim, but her outfits and promiscuity suggests otherwise.

What if they introduced a Christian superhero that murders villains to send them to hell, or a catholic that's a hebephile? Even Jim Shooter didn't agree with Colossus being used as the hebephile quota.

[aja_christopher]

Your viewpoint is extreme. What if instead of Hugh Jackman they had gotten an American born actor with Canadian citizenship? Or are people not born in Canada not real Canadians? What if someone moved to Canada when they were 4 but never got naturalized? What about Hugo Weaving playing Red Skull? Should only Germans get to play genocidal maniacs? What about every Asgardian? Surely only Norweigians should be allowed to portray Viking gods, right? What about voice actors? Surely there should be no gender bending or nation swapping there either. Right?

You have taken an absurd point of view that seems completely out of touch with reality. I have also failed to see you answer the question I have posed to you regarding being Indonesian but looking chinese. Can you provide a link?

Saying I think the people who play the role of someone ethnic should be of that ethnicity is not extreme, and you saying that it is extreme is your opinion and nothing more.

And my answer is in nearly every post I've made on the subject so far -- like I said before, if you don't see it, then there's no point in trying to explain it to you further, especially since you want to resort to using terms like "absurd" when describing my opinion, which is both condescendingly dismissive and blatantly disrespectful.

"Surely" you understand that you don't get to dictate to me what is "reasonable" and what is not.

What if the representation is either stereotypical, offensive, or negative towards the diversity extension? They changed Wally West into a black thug who wears hoodies, calls people chump, gets in trouble, and graffiti's walls. None of those things existed before the reboot and are a terrible representation on race. M is a muslim, but her outfits and promiscuity suggests otherwise.

What if they introduced a Christian superhero that murders villains to send them to hell, or a catholic that's a hebephile? Even Jim Shooter didn't agree with Colossus being used as the hebephile quota.

First off, why should any writer resort to negative stereotypes to create ANY character, much less a superhero?

And secondarily, why does a hero have to be the "perfect" representation of a race or a culture? Does Tony Stark's womanizing reflect poorly on all white males? How about Reed's arrogance? Pym's abusive behavior? Gambit's thieving ways?

Why does an individual of "color" need to reflect their entire culture while a white male character can be seen as in individual who is not reflective of everyone who is likewise a white male? Luke Cage is Luke Cage and Prodigy is Prodigy -- why would either be seen as a singular representative of the "black" race?

Likewise, Kamala Khan is a Muslim, as is Dust and neither wears "suggestive" clothing, so why should M somehow be assumed to represent "Muslims" when it is obvious that all of them are distinct and individual characters with different personalities? Nightcrawler is a Christian, but he has been shown to be promiscuous as well -- does that reflect poorly on all Christians? Or do you see that there is a double-standard at work here, not only in terms of religion but also in terms of gender?

If anything, you've just shown why there should be more diversity and not less -- more representation means more potential for different personality types and ideologies within each different race or religion, making for a more realistic presentation overall.

And please drop the term "quota" -- that has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

[Marvell2100]

What if the representation is either stereotypical, offensive, or negative towards the diversity extension? They changed Wally West into a black thug who wears hoodies, calls people chump, gets in trouble, and graffiti's walls. None of those things existed before the reboot and are a terrible representation on race. M is a muslim, but her outfits and promiscuity suggests otherwise.

What if they introduced a Christian superhero that murders villains to send them to hell, or a catholic that's a hebephile? Even Jim Shooter didn't agree with Colossus being used as the hebephile quota.

Then they should be called out on that and believe me they would be no doubt about it. They would only be following media stereotypes if Wally West is reinvented as a "black thug" or a "mystical" Asian or Native American. That's what made Synch such a popular and well liked character because he wasn't some one-dimensional stereotype.

[skyvolt2000]

First off, why should any writer resort to negative stereotypes to create ANY character, much less a superhero?

And secondarily, why does a hero have to be the "perfect" representation of a race or a culture? Does Tony Stark's womanizing reflect poorly on all white males? How about Reed's arrogance? Pym's abusive behavior? Gambit's thieving ways?
Likewise, Kamala Khan is a Muslim, as is Dust and neither wears "suggestive" clothing, so why should M somehow be assumed to represent "Muslims" when it is obvious that all of them are distinct and individual characters with different personalities?

Here is the point that you missed-Tony, Peter Parker, Steve Rogers, Thor, Cannonball, Xavier, Magneto, Gambit & Cyclops all represent DIFFERENT aspects of white males.

In other words we will see EVERY version of white straight male in comics.

Why does an individual of "color" need to reflect their entire culture while a white male character can be seen as in individual who is not reflective of everyone who is likewise a white male? Luke Cage is Luke Cage and Prodigy is Prodigy -- why would either be seen as a singular representative of the "black" race?

Because for many readers that is the only black person that they SEE.

See the new 52 version of Static. That is book he is judge by as justification for him to NEVER appear in DC Comics again and not the 45 SUPERIOR first series & 52 episode cartoon show under McDuffie.

Also notice the MAJOR issue with the Static example. Every BADLY done book with Static (new 52 book & Henderson Titans run) is available everywhere, the 97 superior products are NOT.

When you limit access-you get held hostage to whatever is available.

And even if you have a variety there is no assurance that everyone will look at it.

See Black Panther-his DEFINING moment is not his 4 solos, a cartoon series or a movie-it's him getting his behind beat by Storm and her calling his "A BAD husband." Not to mention the trolling of the X-Office. Thus the hate.

You might not see it because Marvel has been way more willing to showcase a collection of black males-Luke, Falcon, Deathlok, War Machine, Miles, Blade, Blue Marvel, Battlestar and so on.

[skyvolt2000]

Then they should be called out on that and believe me they would be no doubt about it. They would only be following media stereotypes if Wally West is reinvented as a "black thug" or a "mystical" Asian or Native American. That's what made Synch such a popular and well liked character because he wasn't some one-dimensional stereotype.

They have been called out and it hasn't gotten bigger because they have limited their use of him.