New Avengers discussion- Tony Stark is right.

[Tony Stark]

Do you mean Hickman?

Cap was fine with what the Illumanti had done up to the point they mind-wiped him as long as he had his own seat at the table, and he's been fine with other characters doing similar or worse things than anything the Illuminati have done thus far, as long as they're not done to him, so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. His fantasy sequence in the most recent issue of Avengers gives a pretty good indication as to what his problem is: his bruised ego. Huge hero vs. hero wars always seem to start whenever someone has the gall to hurt Stevie-wevie's precious feewings. "Waaah, waaah, the guys don't think I'm smart enough!"

It's like the time Tony told Cap they would need Wolverine on the team to do the things they weren't willing to do and Cap let him on the team and would get upset when he tried to kill someone. When Cap was in charge in put Wolverine on the Avengers for his ruthlessness. That was his words.

[Username taken]

I don't think we will know who's right or wrong until this arc is over.

It seems there's a lot of stuff that's still going to happen.

[DeamonSnow]

Do you mean Hickman?

Cap was fine with what the Illumanti had done up to the point they mind-wiped him as long as he had his own seat at the table, and he's been fine with other characters doing similar or worse things than anything the Illuminati have done thus far, as long as they're not done to him, so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. His fantasy sequence in the most recent issue of Avengers gives a pretty good indication as to what his problem is: his bruised ego. Huge hero vs. hero wars always seem to start whenever someone has the gall to hurt Stevie-wevie's precious feewings. "Waaah, waaah, the guys don't think I'm smart enough!"

I agree with you 100%. Steve seems to be upset that he got kicked out because he wasn't smart enough. I still maintain that he had no plan and in fact it was Steve who broke the infinity gems. If when all is said and done Cap is shown to be 100% right about everything, I will be livid. The Illuminati saved the earth by destroying that dead earth.

[king of hybrids]

i think their going to be wrong in the sense that they allowed black swan get inside their heads too much, to say nothing of putting thanos and world killers far too close to each other. however i think that cap was wrong in the absolutist position that they should never reach for that (Especially when they have several mass murderers on the avengers roster). odds are being depowered might change cap's perspective somewhat (since its easier to assume theres always another way when you've been able to punch one into being) and might do something stupid but more proactive like try muster that "avengers world" sctick to try take the fight to the black priests; while the illuminatitake a less killy approach to what thanos and the cabal have planned. i have just enough faith in hickman to not go for a 100% cap was right position

also, its entirely possible the "one was life, one was death" is a twist and that cap, that really, really hard to kill jackbooted relic of the jingoistic and moral absolutist golden age is the death one; while iron man, the pragmatic ever-adaptable silver age hero, on a meta level the reason the non-x/spiedy heroes aren't rotting away in mediocrity; is the life one

or they could just sic wanda on the other earths.

[Lando Calrissian]

In a nut shell the Illuminati have no time for a different solution. All these big brains haven't come up with anything yet, and its not like they haven't tried.

Considering the time constraints these men are under, and for what they have at their disposal, I don't see how their decisions are that difficult. Sure no one wants to destroy an Earth but when weighed against the death of trillions upon trillions of species, its a no brainer.

I love Captain America but his thinking, at this point in time, is to way to small.. In all honesty, left to him, everything would've been destroyed already. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it, the cold hard facts are that everything would've been gone if they let Cap decide this.

[Habis]

You know, if the Avengers come to the door of the Illuminati, the latter could bug out, use the Bridge to escape to one of the universes where Earth was destroyed and its population evacuated to somewhere else, and keep working to stop the incursions from there. There is no point allowing themselves to be captured, that would only stop them from doing anything to save the Multiverse. Reed Richards should have already sent his family elsewhere (what if he fails to stop an Incursion and his family is still on Earth?).

What would Caps do if it comes to that? Would he gather the heroes and tell them "clap if you believe! clap if you have faith, and a miracle will happen!"? Or will he take the world-destroying bombs and do what he must?

EDIT: Caps would probably grab poor Hank Pym and demand that he finds a non-lethal solution to the next Incursion...

[Mark]

Is that you Mark_S?

I'm not really sure I want to admit it, I don't want to go through another round of attacks like that last time I was on this board, I've suffered enough depression and fleeting thoughts of suicide because of those and really thought I'd never be back, but one of the columnist swore the place had turned less vicious so I thought I'd give it a try again.

[Mark]

Yea, that sounds pretty non-noble, but it is something they'd do.

You know, if the Avengers come to the door of the Illuminati, the latter could bug out, use the Bridge to escape to one of the universes where Earth was destroyed and its population evacuated to somewhere else, and keep working to stop the incursions from there. There is no point allowing themselves to be captured, that would only stop them from doing anything to save the Multiverse. Reed Richards should have already sent his family elsewhere (what if he fails to stop an Incursion and his family is still on Earth?).

What would Caps do if it comes to that? Would he gather the heroes and tell them "clap if you believe! clap if you have faith, and a miracle will happen!"? Or will he take the world-destroying bombs and do what he must?

EDIT: Caps would probably grab poor Hank Pym and demand that he finds a non-lethal solution to the next Incursion...

[Victor Freeman]

Do you mean Hickman?

Cap was fine with what the Illumanti had done up to the point they mind-wiped him as long as he had his own seat at the table, and he's been fine with other characters doing similar or worse things than anything the Illuminati have done thus far, as long as they're not done to him, so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. His fantasy sequence in the most recent issue of Avengers gives a pretty good indication as to what his problem is: his bruised ego. Huge hero vs. hero wars always seem to start whenever someone has the gall to hurt Stevie-wevie's precious feewings. "Waaah, waaah, the guys don't think I'm smart enough!"

No chill here at all. lol.

I'm team Illumanti. Tony is right, the current team is actually built to fight stuff overtly. While the Illumanti deals with the covert-incursion stuff. I just don't think the incursion being common knowledge would be a good thing if it manged to get out to the public. It would be anarchy.

[Marvell2100]

A few things I'd like to point out:

Involving more people may not always be a good thing. Too many cooks spoil the pot. There may be alort more people willing to destroy an inhabited planet and save their own Earth andt hey may not wait on the others to make that decision.

Steve is only going to be as right as the writer wants him to be. This was an impossible situation to begin with with the odds stacked so high against the Illuminati. Why didn't Steve try to bring in more people to help? He was more than willing to keep his own membership in the Illuminati a secret. The other members haven't destroyed an inhabited world and continue to look for other solutions.

[Mark]

A few things I'd like to point out:

Involving more people may not always be a good thing. Too many cooks spoil the pot. There may be alort more people willing to destroy an inhabited planet and save their own Earth andt hey may not wait on the others to make that decision.

Steve is only going to be as right as the writer wants him to be. This was an impossible situation to begin with with the odds stacked so high against the Illuminati. Why didn't Steve try to bring in more people to help? He was more than willing to keep his own membership in the Illuminati a secret. The other members haven't destroyed an inhabited world and continue to look for other solutions.

They do yes, but ultimately this is going to come down to a choice for them: Do they become mass murderers or not?

In some ways I really think marvel has gotten to cosmic. With the fate of entire universes on the line it's hard to take Cyclop's battles with SHIELD seriously. He could win or loose and the universe would blow up the next day.

[jphamlore]

Except in every other Hickman book I've seen since he came to Marvel, a self-appointed elite making critical decisions for everyone else leads to horror and catastrophe. I do not see this changing with regards to New Avengers / Avengers. And there are obvious reasons why this should be Hickman's theme considering world history the past decade or so.

[Marvell2100]

They do yes, but ultimately this is going to come down to a choice for them: Do they become mass murderers or not?

In some ways I really think marvel has gotten to cosmic. With the fate of entire universes on the line it's hard to take Cyclop's battles with SHIELD seriously. He could win or loose and the universe would blow up the next day.

That's the thing though, they haven't crossed the line and until they do, to accuse them of anything else is unwarrented. Of the remaining members of the Illuminati only one ofthem can be considered a superhero andthat would be Tony. However, they are all people of integrity and I think many are judging them too harshly for what they're facing.

[XPac]

Bendis might have said it before, but this is Hickman's Illuminati. They just aren't waiting around for something just to pop up. What is Cap's idea after his plan destroyed the gems?! Something better will come along was basically his plan. This is were Incursions are happening and very little time is left.

For what its worth, Hickman said Steve was right "for the most part." Take that for what it's worth.

http://new.spring.me/#!/JonathanHick...09920414090303

My personal view is that Steve will likely end up being right, but at the moment I find a lot of flaw in how both sides are dealing with the issue.

[XPac]

A few things I'd like to point out:

Involving more people may not always be a good thing. Too many cooks spoil the pot. There may be alort more people willing to destroy an inhabited planet and save their own Earth andt hey may not wait on the others to make that decision.

Steve is only going to be as right as the writer wants him to be. This was an impossible situation to begin with with the odds stacked so high against the Illuminati. Why didn't Steve try to bring in more people to help? He was more than willing to keep his own membership in the Illuminati a secret. The other members haven't destroyed an inhabited world and continue to look for other solutions.

Faulting Steve for not bringing in more help is kind of unfair, given that he was mind wiped after the very first incursion they collectively dealt with. He came up with a plan to dealing with the on incursion he had to deal with using the gems, and that was basically it for Steve. Perhaps had he not been mind wiped he would have gotten more help, but the option was taken away from him.

Even now, just after he got his memory back of the events he ended up getting sucked through time so at this point there's not a whole lot of opportunity for him to get outside assistance.