carol danvers costume change

[Punisher007]

You make the mistake that a fictional character is making the choice about her costume. That choice is made by the artist. And haven't you noticed that in the films, the costume design is much more realistic. Look at Scarlet Witch in the comics vs MCU Scarlet Witch. There's no need for female costumed heroes to run around in bathing suit costumes with opera gloves. BTW, the current design in the comics is a distinct improvement and was much needed. As a female reader, I encourage the trend to update these antiquated costumes. You can still look appealing and attractive with out showing skin, as you keep mentioning.

Also there's a difference between having one of two "fan-servicy" shirtless scenes, and having their COSTUMES be fanservice. Yeah Thor takes his shirt off once or twice, but his actual costume looks like armor. Captain America wears suspiciously tight-fitting shirts at times, but his actual costume covers him from head to toe. And so on and so forth. Their actual COSTUMES are not fanservice.

Like I've said before, if you want a more accurate equivalency for Carol (or another female heroes), then having a token scene or two of her say, longing by a pool in a swimsuit, or at the beach, or working out in a tank top/sports bra, would be more like what we get with the men. But to make her costume overtly sexual, no it's not the same thing.

It's a really obvious distinction that some people seem to not get, it's a totally false equivalency.

[Punisher007]

The only one where she doesn't look female is the one that was plastered all over the internet (bottom row, third panel). And she doesn't look particularilly male either.

For some people, if female characters don't look like stereotypical "super-models," and have long flowing hair, then they "look like men" or are "ugly." It doesn't seem to occur to them that women, like men, tend to look quite different from each other, and have many different types of looks.

It also says more about the reader than the character, and what it says is, disappointing, to say the least.

[Tiamatty]

Also there's a difference between having one of two "fan-servicy" shirtless scenes, and having their COSTUMES be fanservice. Yeah Thor takes his shirt off once or twice, but his actual costume looks like armor. Captain America wears suspiciously tight-fitting shirts at times, but his actual costume covers him from head to toe. And so on and so forth. Their actual COSTUMES are not fanservice.

Like I've said before, if you want a more accurate equivalency for Carol (or another female heroes), then having a token scene or two of her say, longing by a pool in a swimsuit, or at the beach, or working out in a tank top/sports bra, would be more like what we get with the men. But to make her costume overtly sexual, no it's not the same thing.

It's a really obvious distinction that some people seem to not get, it's a totally false equivalency.

Yep, give us Carol finishing a workout, with her guns out and killer lady-abs shown off.

[Punisher007]

No doubt, women's costumes historically reflected a patriarchal society where the comic book creators and their audience were primarily males. Picking up a title and seeing all of the men garbed head to toe in armor, while the women are in bustier and hosiery is absolutely cringe-worthy by today's standards. Out with the old, in with the appropriate. But I think we have to be very careful in defining what meets the standard of appropriate, especially as it relates to a character's individuality.

I don't know how many here work in a corporate environment, but questions like this come up all of the time at my office. Men are basically screwed in terms of the "skin" standard, because at most you can only get away with no tie and one button loose on your pressed collared shirt, if you're not interacting with or otherwise visible to the clients. Short sleeve dress shirts are frowned upon, but there aren't any specific guidelines prohibiting them. V-neck sweaters are acceptable as long as there is a long sleeve shirt beneath it. Shorts are out. Sandals are out. Sneakers are out. Tube socks are out. All manner of culturally appropriate wear like dashikis and kimonos are out. In short, aside from the face and hands, you're covered fully.

Women on the other hand are much more free to indulge their personality, tastes, whimsy and mood when it comes to fashion in the office. They can wear dresses of any length as long as it's not a mini skirt. If a skirt has a slit, it cannot rise to the waist or otherwise place the women in jeopardy of exposing her private areas. Hosiery is not required, so they are free to breathe and show legs. They can wear blouses (short, long and even sleeveless) that reveal décolletage and cleavage. Said blouses can be made of sufficiently opaque materials that the brassier is visible. Dress shorts are permitted, but casual shorts/hot pants/so-called "booty" shorts are obviously prohibited. They can wear leggings, no matter how form fitting, but yoga pants, sweatpants, etc., are prohibited. Black skinny jeans are fine. (The blue variety are only permitted on casual Fridays.) Unlike the men, women can wear any form of cultural attire that they choose as long as the face is visible. I'm told, but have yet to see it enforced, that women are not allowed to wear sandals. Sneakers are also not allowed. In short, a woman can wear almost whatever the hell she pleases.

It's truly unfortunate that far too many comic creators designed women costumes in order to pander to a man's most base instinct (and in turn, get him to empty his wallet). But I hope that the response to that isn't to swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme. Sure, if dressing Iron Man in an armored Speedo reflects who Tony is, then do it. Heck, dress Namor in a translucent onesie, if that's the extent of his heroic calling for all I care. But don't dictate that they must do these things in order to balance the scales. Two wrongs....

Oh I agree to an extend (although as we've seen recently, women face other challenges in the workforce that men do not, or at least not to the same degree). Which is why I give a pass to say, Emma Frost wearing revealing outfits (because a consistent trait of her character is that she's very self-confident and almost enjoys flaunting her body in front of others. Also she's a telepath who rarely engages in direct combat, so it's more forgivable there as well), or Power Girl's massive breasts/boob window (because it's almost a meta gag, both in universe and out, at this point), or Zatanna wearing fishnets and high heels (she's a sorceress who doesn't usually engage in direct combat and she's a stage magician with a "showman" type of personality in general), etc.

Where it tends to break down for me, is when some people seem to argue that ALL women characters must be that way, or that it's inherently more "feminist" to do so. Or when there seems to be this perception that if a female character doesn't adhere to the cliché of what "comic book women" tend to be drawn as (improbably large breasts, skimpy/revealing outfits, long flowing hair, stereotypically super-model appearance in-general, etc), that they somehow "don't have the female body type," ignoring that woman come in all shapes and sizes, there is no one set "female body type," or that "they look like a man." That's where the problems start.

[classicgmer]

But she does spend the bulk of her time in the modern world. She always has spent most of her time in the modern world. And even if she did spend most of her time in other dimensions, that outfit is still stupid. There is no reality where that steel bikini is actually a reasonable thing to wear. What's the point in it? Literally, what is the point? What is the point in armour that provides absolutely no protection at all from anything? It wouldn't even protect her if she's hit in the chest, because boob armour doesn't deflect blows, it just focuses them into the very centre of the chest. If she's just wanting to dress sexy, then a regular bikini would be infinitely more practical. A steel bikini would be super-uncomfortable while providing no protection.

The only purpose it serves is to let dudes ogle her. That's it. That is the sole and entire purpose of that armour. And when the only thing a woman's costume does, when designed by a guy, is to let dudes ogle her? It's a **** costume. It's garbage. It is sexist, because it's saying that she exists just to be ogled.

So no, she really shouldn't wear that monstrosity. Ever. It's sexist and it's ugly and it places wank-bait over character.

What comics are you reading where she's not appearing in some exotic locale like weird world or swamps? Seriously almost every time i've seen a published appearance of her it's not exactly of her hanging out in cities.


Also the bulk of your argument is basically " i and other like minded individuals like me are offended by the outfit so therefore it should be done away with.". Yeah the outfit isn't practical but you can also point hundreds of examples of stuff that isn't practical in comics and that stuff isn't singled out for not being practical so this is rather selective.


To me the bottom line is if it offends you so much then you have the option of not supporting the look with your $$$ whenever Marvel so chooses to publish that look for her BUT for people to basically throw temper tantrums and demand Marvel bow down and never use the costume so as to not to offend some peoples delicate sensibilities is more than a bit ridiculous.

[Jabare]

they always gave her these powerful and heroic poses in the last costume to me








If you didn't know who she was you'd at least think she was an athlete in good enough shape to kick your butt. Almost has an olympic gymnast vibe, but she's just too tall.

[Tiamatty]

What comics are you reading where she's not appearing in some exotic locale like weird world or swamps? Seriously almost every time i've seen a published appearance of her it's not exactly of her hanging out in cities.


Also the bulk of your argument is basically " i and other like minded individuals like me are offended by the outfit so therefore it should be done away with.". Yeah the outfit isn't practical but you can also point hundreds of examples of stuff that isn't practical in comics and that stuff isn't singled out for not being practical so this is rather selective.


To me the bottom line is if it offends you so much then you have the option of not supporting the look with your $$$ whenever Marvel so chooses to publish that look for her BUT for people to basically throw temper tantrums and demand Marvel bow down and never use the costume so as to not to offend some peoples delicate sensibilities is more than a bit ridiculous.

Stories where she's in the modern world? There were a few stories in the '90s, there was that Witches mini, there have been cameos a-plenty. Even in a Marvel Zombies mini, she was part of a Florida-based superhero team. She has at least as many appearances in the regular world as in other dimensions.

And my argument isn't about finding the outfit offensive. It's about finding it stupid and ugly and sexist. Even if you disregard the sexist element - and dude it is so sexist a costume - it's still stupid and ugly. It's still a steel bikini, which is less practical than a regular bikini. A woman would be better-served charging into battle in a regular bikini than in a steel one, because at least then she wouldn't have to deal with so much discomfort and chafing.

And even if we disregard the sexism and the impracticality, it's still ugly! It's a terrible, ugly design. It always was. This isn't me unfairly judging it based on modern standards. Even by the standards of the time, it was ugly. Even variations on it that cover more of her up still end up looking bad. Thunderbolts tried it, just colouring most of her skin dark to suggest some sort of covering, but the main armour bits still looked stupid.

The way I see it, there are two ways to handle Jennifer Kale. Either street clothes (my own preference), or if she needs some sort of mystical outfit, give her full-body armour. Preferably a practical design (i.e., isn't molded to the shape of her chest). Probably something fairly light. But like I said, I prefer her as a modern witch, wearing modern clothes. Let Jen Bartel design her fashion.

[Carabas]

If you didn't know who she was you'd at least think she was an athlete in good enough shape to kick your butt. Almost has an olympic gymnast vibe, but she's just too tall.

I really would have to go with fetish model. Absolutely no other profession wears a black latex bathingsuit with opera gloves and thigh high boots.

[JudicatorPrime]

Where it tends to break down for me, is when some people seem to argue that ALL women characters must be that way, or that it's inherently more "feminist" to do so. Or when there seems to be this perception that if a female character doesn't adhere to the cliché of what "comic book women" tend to be drawn as (improbably large breasts, skimpy/revealing outfits, long flowing hair, stereotypically super-model appearance in-general, etc), that they somehow "don't have the female body type," ignoring that woman come in all shapes and sizes, there is no one set "female body type," or that "they look like a man." That's where the problems start.

I hear you. I certainly wasn't advocating that creators distort feminist ideology as license and justification to continue to hypersexualize and objectify women. I was simply pointing out that Carol was Marvel's First Fabulous Feminist and given everything that she stands for, if anyone deserves the right to be portrayed as the type of woman that can wear anything that she wants to, revealing or not, it's Carol. That said, we all know how ignorant, tone deaf, and misogynistic Marvel creators can be. I haven't forgotten Avengers 200 and the rape of Carol Danvers by Marcus Immortus. I've never forgiven Shooter or the Avengers creative team for that vile story.

[Tiamatty]

I really would have to go with fetish model. Absolutely no other profession wears a black latex bathingsuit with opera gloves and thigh high boots.

This is true, I've checked, it's why I can't keep a job.

[Ezyo1000]

I really would have to go with fetish model. Absolutely no other profession wears a black latex bathingsuit with opera gloves and thigh high boots.

Well... I don't know about that... Lol

[JudicatorPrime]

I really would have to go with fetish model. Absolutely no other profession wears a black latex bathingsuit with opera gloves and thigh high boots.

I was thinking Vegas showgirl, NFL or other professional sport cheerleader, Radio City Rockette or "pro" wrestler.

[Marvell2100]

they always gave her these powerful and heroic poses in the last costume to me








If you didn't know who she was you'd at least think she was an athlete in good enough shape to kick your butt. Almost has an olympic gymnast vibe, but she's just too tall.

To me, these pics only further illustrate the problem with her wearing a thong/leotard for a costume. Bare butt cheeks showing? Can't take her seriously imo.

[KurtW95]

I’ll assume you guys hating on the leotardish costume also hate Gwenpool’s costume...

[Marvell2100]

If it's a thong/leotard costume then I wouldn't like that one either.