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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member WaxHawk's Avatar
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    Default My theory on why Jane and Captain America are worthy

    Apologies this will be a long post.

    I need to start at the beginning.

    Before Thor/Odinson picked up Mjonlir he was Thor. He was the first Thor. Everyone else who picks up the hammer they take his name, they take on a version of his appearance. No other god has someone take their mantle – there is only one Loki, one Hela, one Heimdall, one Sif etc. The original Thor is special.

    So what makes him special – it is his constant striving to be worthy. When King Thor asks Thor the question he knows the answer to ‘What if Gorr is right?’ Thor answers correctly we strive to do better. Latter in that issue we explicitly told that Thor is unsure if he will be worthy until he picks up the hammer, he needs to constantly strive for worthiness. This is repeated in a conversation with Jane in Unworthy Thor #4. This is a key point – Thor is determining what it means to be worthy – not Mjolnir, not Odin.

    Mjolnir, is however, semi sentient (as shown in issue 12), she knows Thor, she recognises why Thor is special.

    So, when he hears the whisper and his fears are confirmed – he, Thor, self determines that he is unworthy and all the other gods as well – this is why Odin can’t pick up Mjolnir.

    But Mjolnir ‘knows’ that we need a Thor. Who would Thor/Odinson choose as worthy? We have many scenes of the mutual love and respect that Jane and Odinson have shown each other – on the moon before Odinson became unworthy, a conversation in Asgard after he is, two separate conversations in Unworthy Thor #4. It doesn’t hurt that Jane is a mortal because Mjolnir supports Thor – all gods are unworthy.

    Want more proof of Jane’s importance to Odinson?
    When King Thor is rebuilding the Earth one of the first two rivers is named Jane (sidenote the third river is named Roz – I strongly suspect she will become important later). In the annual Thor and his grand daughters recreate life – the first woman he names Jane.

    Speaking of the annual the middle story has Jane on adventure with the warriors three. She knows she is worthy because Mjolnir told her so – this is Odinson telling her so. I mistook her attitude for righteousness this is why she is so sure of herself.

    Mjolnir knows how important Jane is to Odinson – she is pulling out all her tricks to help Jane – see issue 11. It is why she is so good with ‘limited’ training.

    Want more proof of Thor determining who is worthy?
    Freya mentions that she should have picked up Mjolnir when she had the chance. We have seen scenes of the mutual respect of these two characters (e.g. Unworthy Thor #4)

    When Odinson was searching for who might be the new Thor he only searched amongst women he knew – he gave up when he eliminated them all. He didn’t search for anyone he didn’t know. At the time I found that strange.

    Who is War Thor? Again it is someone who Thor knows, someone he respects, this character is worthy but not the most worthy – fits Volstagg to a tee (yes this a prediction).

    I want to now circle back to King Thor recreating Earth. I didn’t mention who the other river was named after or the name of the first man created. It was Steve. That is right Captain America. Thor and Captain America have mutual respect for each other – and have had for a long time. The semi-sentient Mjolnir would know this.

    So, True Believers, if you have been following the bread crumbs, you can’t help but come to the conclusion that Aaron has been planning on having some version of Captain America lift Mjolnir all along!

    OK that is my theory. I’m sure that there are those that think this is hogwash. Please feel free – I implore you – prod my theory, poke holes in it, blow it up. Some of what I’ve said might be obvious to others but sometimes I’m a little slow, sorry.

    I’ll point out that all my evidence comes from continuity since Aaron took over. I know very little of the details from other writers and I know that might annoy some people. I will mention that I’m aware that Captain America has previously lifted Mjolnir.

  2. #2
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Well, this is still doesnt explain why spoilers:
    Captain Hydra is still worthy.
    end of spoilers

  3. #3
    Fantastic Member WaxHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    Well, this is still doesnt explain why spoilers:
    Captain Hydra is still worthy.
    end of spoilers
    Yes, it does. Mjolnir is doing what Thor/Odinson would want. These two characters have demonstrated mutual respect many times. Even if Thor/Odinson knows about this he hasn't had any contact with Mjolnir to 'remove' the worthiness of this character.

  4. #4
    I am BLACK GUY dreyga2000's Avatar
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    What about Squirrel Girl's worthiness??

  5. #5
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    What about Squirrel Girl's worthiness??
    Probably Odinson thinks that she is worthy as well.

  6. #6
    Fantastic Member WaxHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    What about Squirrel Girl's worthiness??
    Honestly had no idea that she was something to be considered. As I mentioned if Aaron didn't write it I probably haven't read it.

    It could blow my theory up, affect not all or enhance it - Simply I have no idea.

    It exactly the type of thing I'm looking for though - thanks.

  7. #7
    All-New Member 2cats's Avatar
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    According to Aaron there is a sentient cosmic storm that has a grundge against Asgard trapped in the hammer? Does it has nothing to say about who is worthy? Also, if I remember well, Odin put the spell on Mjolnir to prevent the power of the storm to be use against Asgard before Thor was born. But the spell contains Thor in it, which could imply that Odin procreate and rise a child for the sole propose to have control of a formidable weapon or Thor is the sentient cosmic storm.

  8. #8
    Fantastic Member WaxHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2cats View Post
    According to Aaron there is a sentient cosmic storm that has a grundge against Asgard trapped in the hammer? Does it has nothing to say about who is worthy? Also, if I remember well, Odin put the spell on Mjolnir to prevent the power of the storm to be use against Asgard before Thor was born. But the spell contains Thor in it, which could imply that Odin procreate and rise a child for the sole propose to have control of a formidable weapon or Thor is the sentient cosmic storm.
    Not certain that I understand everything you are trying to say.

    I think perhaps you are providing the mechanics/reason for Mjolnir to be linked to Thor/Odinson. It would slightly change my theory because Mjolnir would be assisting Thor against her will as opposed to the more supportive picture I painted. But I don't think it changes the bottom line (correct me if I'm wrong).

    Thanks for your thoughts.

  9. #9
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    My theory: Mjolnir is just really friggen finicky on who's worthy or not. Seriously that piece of lead never made sense. Someone like Superman can't lift it unless barriers between realities breaks the normal rules for him to lift it yet Loki getting his morality alignment reversed for a week is not only able to lift it but get a snazzy Thor-lite attire to beat his brother with.

  10. #10
    All-New Member 2cats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxHawk View Post
    Not certain that I understand everything you are trying to say.

    I think perhaps you are providing the mechanics/reason for Mjolnir to be linked to Thor/Odinson. It would slightly change my theory because Mjolnir would be assisting Thor against her will as opposed to the more supportive picture I painted. But I don't think it changes the bottom line (correct me if I'm wrong).

    Thanks for your thoughts.
    Yeah, my redaction was bad. I try again. Also I reread Thor #12 to have things clear.

    Thor does decide who is worthy, but not Thor Odinson, Thor the trapped sentient storm inside Mjolnir. After defeating the storm, Odin wanted the hammer for himself but couldn't control it, the storm remained unruled and caused havok once lifted. To prevent mayor destruction Odin put a spell on Mjolnir, allowing only himself to lift the hammer which he rarely does knowing the concecuences, and it is still up to the storm if it lets Odin use Mjolnir.

    Whosever hold this hammer : How the storm comunicates its decision. It reads hold not lift.
    if he be worthy : the storm decides if it wants to colaborate with the wilder, then it is the storm who decides who is worthy.
    shall posses the power of Thor : the storm is the power source of the hammer then the storm is Thor.

    Of course it is possible that this spell is different from the one Odin put back then. Since Aaron wrote:"So the Allfather placed enchantments on the hammer that would make it all but impossible from everyone else to lift the hammer" it is undifined. But If they were the same spell and Odin equated Allfather to worthy then he grated the storm the power to decide who is the rightful Allfather.

    That Odinson could influence the storm's decision, pretty plausable, after all, they have spent every ragnarok cycle toghether.
    Why Jane? Well, there are only two reasons why the storm would let someone hold Mjolnir, if it could control the wilder or if it really likes the wilder. In wich category Jane or Odinson falls I can't tell without knowing more about the storm's agenda.
    My guess about why Thor was special is that he never yielded no matter what, he never stopped trying until Fury's whisper oblivarated all his hopes and confirmed that any effort was a futil endevor. We coincide in that.

  11. #11
    Fantastic Member WaxHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2cats View Post
    Yeah, my redaction was bad. I try again. Also I reread Thor #12 to have things clear.

    Thor does decide who is worthy, but not Thor Odinson, Thor the trapped sentient storm inside Mjolnir. After defeating the storm, Odin wanted the hammer for himself but couldn't control it, the storm remained unruled and caused havok once lifted. To prevent mayor destruction Odin put a spell on Mjolnir, allowing only himself to lift the hammer which he rarely does knowing the concecuences, and it is still up to the storm if it lets Odin use Mjolnir.

    Whosever hold this hammer : How the storm comunicates its decision. It reads hold not lift.
    if he be worthy : the storm decides if it wants to colaborate with the wilder, then it is the storm who decides who is worthy.
    shall posses the power of Thor : the storm is the power source of the hammer then the storm is Thor.


    Of course it is possible that this spell is different from the one Odin put back then. Since Aaron wrote:"So the Allfather placed enchantments on the hammer that would make it all but impossible from everyone else to lift the hammer" it is undifined. But If they were the same spell and Odin equated Allfather to worthy then he grated the storm the power to decide who is the rightful Allfather.

    That Odinson could influence the storm's decision, pretty plausable, after all, they have spent every ragnarok cycle toghether.
    Why Jane? Well, there are only two reasons why the storm would let someone hold Mjolnir, if it could control the wilder or if it really likes the wilder. In wich category Jane or Odinson falls I can't tell without knowing more about the storm's agenda.
    My guess about why Thor was special is that he never yielded no matter what, he never stopped trying until Fury's whisper oblivarated all his hopes and confirmed that any effort was a futil endevor. We coincide in that.
    I like it. I'm not convinced of what you said entirely though. I think the name is important. Thor/Odinson was Thor before he picked up the hammer (unless Odin named him after the storm, but I don't recollect that being her name. I thought it was Mjolnir - correct me on this if I'm wrong). I think that initially Mjolnir did select who was worthy - and she chose Thor. Since then Mjolnir has been taken its cues from Thor/Odinson - Why else when someone lifts the hammer do they turn/change into a representation of the original Thor?

    Having said that I can't think of anything definitive to disprove your theory, and it has made me think about mine.

  12. #12
    All-New Member 2cats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaxHawk View Post
    I like it. I'm not convinced of what you said entirely though. I think the name is important. Thor/Odinson was Thor before he picked up the hammer (unless Odin named him after the storm, but I don't recollect that being her name. I thought it was Mjolnir - correct me on this if I'm wrong). I think that initially Mjolnir did select who was worthy - and she chose Thor. Since then Mjolnir has been taken its cues from Thor/Odinson - Why else when someone lifts the hammer do they turn/change into a representation of the original Thor?

    Having said that I can't think of anything definitive to disprove your theory, and it has made me think about mine.

    Certainly whosever holds Mijolnir recives a makeover, but I don't think is in the imagen of Odinson. Pre-hammer teen Thor in the God Butcher, looked really different from hammer-holder adult Thor. The only constant in every holder, as portrayed in Thor Corps, is the silver wings, maybe the storm has a fetish for wings, who knows. Now that I'm writing this I noticed that Odin never changed when he pick up Mjolnir.

    Mjolnir is the name Odin gave the hammer. As far as I know the librarian, the Shi'ar Gods and Jane refer to the storm simply as Mother Storm.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    Well, this is still doesnt explain why spoilers:
    Captain Hydra is still worthy.
    end of spoilers
    Hasn't Dr. Doom held the hammer before? Heck, Doom was one of the purest people you could get, if you want to be fair. The guy took on the Beyonders and won! But that hardly makes him good. Cap truly thinks he's doing the right thing, and has the will to make it happen. He's very pure in his intent. That's what makes him worthy.

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    Double Post
    Last edited by Rosebunse; 05-04-2017 at 07:09 PM.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    An interesting theory, but how would it explain random nameless EMT, Beta Ray Bill, Storm and others who Thor did not know well or at all at the time who have demonstrated worthiness? (Yes, sometimes in alternate realities, but still, I am working under the assumption that most alternate Mjolnirs have a similar enchantment, and the story is too, hence the inclusion of Ultimate Mjolnir)

    As for War Thor, I think most people by now are expecting the costume nods to Odin to be red herring, and i think that too, I'm fairly certain it is not Odin, the dialogue just did not fit him at all. And i do agree Volstagg is a solid choice based on the dialogue, and it could fit his role on the council, after becoming frustrated with how it has been frozen and unable to do anything about Malekith. But there is another option who the dialogue and recent character development would fit, and who would have more reason to hide his identity than Volstagg would, and would be more likely to incorporate bits of Odin into that disguise.... Loki. And if it is him, then this theory kinda falls apart, since he and his brother are not exactly on the best of terms at the moment, and it is mostly Thor being mad at Loki rahter than the other way around for once, and Mjolnir has known this for years.

    I think the enchantment has simply mutated, or worn away, so that the sentient storm at it's core is making the decisions, so there are no hard and fast rules, more like guidelines. But I think it's sentience is limited, and probably does not understand politics or that Hydra is bad by default kinda thing. It just can sense that Steve genuinely wants to help the world, and Hydra Cap DOES want to help the world, and believes he is the one who CAN save the world, he just is going about it in a really bad way. I think what made Odinson unworthy was that while he still wanted to help people, he had lost faith in himself being the one who COULD do that, because he bought into what Gorr said. Steve still has faith that he CAN save the world. So does Jane. Presumably so does War Thor, whether it is Volstagg, Loki, or someone else. So like, I guess it is twofold, desire to help, and the confidence that they can. I know War Thor's dialogue expressed self doubt about his worthiness, but then as you mentioned, Odinson himself often expressed doubts about his worthiness, but I think still believed that what he was doing did help. That's the part I think Thor lost, he began to believe he was doing more harm than good because of what Gorr said about gods, and counting himself among them rather than seeing himself as an individual.

    Edited to add - also, to an earlier point about the cosmic storm, I do think Mjolnir is more in charge than some people think. When Jane goes into Thor mode, it is not just her appearance and abilities that change, it is her personality as well. Her mode of speech changes, and she becomes much more impulsive, more black and white in her thinking, more judgemental. There have also been a couple instances now where she lets Mjolnir act without any direct input, allows it to make decisions. Two main instances come to mind, the fight with Loki, she was flailing around at him completely ineffectually, until she said two words to Mjolnir, "end this" and it just.... did. She didn't direct it in any way, she just let it go, and let Mjolnir, not her, win the fight. Second instance was on Dario's floating base right before Mjolnir took her form. She left it hanging in the air in another room with instructions to hold off the Viking hulks. Yeah, in both instances she gave verbal directions, but Mjolnir still was left to make the decisions on how it carried them out on it's own. How much of this is Jane treating it as a partner more than a tool vs Mjolnir kinda altering her mind is up for debate, but Mjolnir is still displaying a great deal of agency.

    So yeah, I don't think we can eliminate a free will aspect with Mjolnir, which may mean making decisions that contradict earlier ones based on the needs of what it sees as needed in the moment.

    Also, are we sure Steve doesn't actually have the hammer of Thorr? You know, the bizarro unworthy version? I know Thor dropped it When fighting the Beyonders, but that encounter likely never happened anymore, so we aren't really sure where it is.
    Last edited by Raye; 05-05-2017 at 01:11 AM.

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