Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

It's entirely possible Coogler would've ignored whatever Hudlin did with Shuri, but Shuri not having done anything of note prior to becoming BP didn't necessarily help things. It didn't increase the chances of Coogler basing her off the source material because as far as he was concerned there was little source material to work with.

Same goes for Coates, but then again it's entirely possible he still would've pushed this Doctor Strange of Wakanda thing so who knows. All I'm saying is that failing to give her a core before becoming BP left the character with no real path forward when T'Challa took back the mantle. It's partially responsible for the current divide between her character.

If over the course of 20-25 issues Shuri had a character arc not relating to becoming BP, developed a distinct superhero identity, and made friendships/romances with characters either within or outside the mythos (like the Young Avengers) then things might've turned out differently. Her first ongoing wouldn't have involved her becoming BP AGAIN, the teenage tech wiz MCU synergy wouldn't be so tonally incoherent with Coates, there might not be as much push for her to be the MCU Panther, etc. I'm not saying these things are guaranteed, just that they were more likely if she were better utilized in her first few years of appearances and been more than just T'Challa's hotheaded little sister.

We're speaking hypothetically here... but IMO Disney wanted a Disney princess. A young teenage relatable character that little girls can flock to. So unless Coates or Hudlin coincidentally would have went that route, it would have been tossed aside anyways.

Again, using Hawkeye as an example. Decades worth of development and it was all still ignored to fit what the movies needed. Which is fine... it's a different medium so they have every right to do it. But on the comics side, the synergy issue sometimes creates problems.

But yes, Hudlin did a pretty crappy job developing Shuri prior to making her BP. No doubt about it. He barely bothered using her. That said given the arc he made Shuri BP was his last, he did pretty much the only thing he could do... and it DID work. So there's that.

[chief12d]

They should have had Shuri join a team like Young Avengers, Future Foundation or Avengers Academy. That would have given her other opportunities for development and not living in he brothers' shadow. Shuri becoming BP wasn't the problem. Shuri losing the mantle and writers not knowing what to do with her was.

Coates came up with this non-sensical Griot persona that no one liked because they basically made her the all-knowing, all-powerful Dr Strange of Wakanda. What book was she gonna fit in outside of Black Panther? But Shuri the tech super-genius can go just about anywhere. That should have been the focus of her growth.

Exactly, this all comes back to Shuri not having anything going for her if she's not in her brother's shoes. I like Shuri a lot, but her entire existence is rather parasitic if the only time she can actually be compelling or relevant is when she's BP. That's not a sustainable status quo (well it'll have to be if the MCU says so) and it's a permanent cap.

She should've been transitioned onto a youth team in 2016 while making occasional guest appearances in the BP books. A place she could develop independent of T'Challa and gaining feats and relationships not contingent on the BP mantle. The issue is the Young Avengers have been poorly utilized and haven't had a book since 2014 while Shuri is simply too old for the Champions as an a former queen in her early-mid 20's. So what really should've happened is she was put on a secondary Avengers team like A-Force or Avengers Ideas Mechanics.

[chief12d]

We're speaking hypothetically here... but IMO Disney wanted a Disney princess. A young teenage relatable character that little girls can flock to. So unless Coates or Hudlin coincidentally would have went that route, it would have been tossed aside anyways.

Again, using Hawkeye as an example. Decades worth of development and it was all still ignored to fit what the movies needed. Which is fine... it's a different medium so they have every right to do it. But on the comics side, the synergy issue sometimes creates problems.

But yes, Hudlin did a pretty crappy job developing Shuri prior to making her BP. No doubt about it. He barely bothered using her. That said given the arc he made Shuri BP was his last, he did pretty much the only thing he could do... and it DID work. So there's that.

We don't know what Disney wanted. Shuri wasn't worth much prior to becoming BP so maybe that's all they saw her potential being. It's impossible to say, though what I do know is that Shuri being so ill-defined prior to the MCU only increased the chances she could get completely rewritten rather than Coogler following the source material.

Likewise, Shuri being so weakly developed increased the chances her character was wholly reinvented by Coates (who granted doesn't seem to care much about prior characterization anyway) but perhaps editorial would've had something to say. Shuri becoming BP before she actually had traits, feats, relationships, etc. not contingent on that role opened up the way to these type of inconsistencies. It's obviously not entirely responsible, but it's a contributing factor that deserves criticism and fixing going forward.

[XPac]

Exactly, this all comes back to Shuri not having anything going for her if she's not in her brother's shoes. I like Shuri a lot, but her entire existence is rather parasitic if the only time she can actually be compelling or relevant is when she's BP. That's not a sustainable status quo (well it'll have to be if the MCU says so) and it's a permanent cap.

She should've been transitioned onto a youth team in 2016 while making occasional guest appearances in the BP books. A place she could develop independent of T'Challa and gaining feats and relationships not contingent on the BP mantle. The issue is the Young Avengers have been poorly utilized and haven't had a book since 2014 while Shuri is simply too old for the Champions as an a former queen in her early-mid 20's. So what really should've happened is she was put on a secondary Avengers team like A-Force or Avengers Ideas Mechanics.

I think the problem being most secondary books aren't around long enough to even matter. It's like Kasper Cole being a part of the Crew... if you're cancelled after like 6 issues, you might as well have not been in the book at all.

Her being on the Avengers might have been interesting... though obviously that would have required Waid to have actual interest having her on the team. That's not something any BP writer would necessarily have control of.

[XPac]

We don't know what Disney wanted. Shuri wasn't worth much prior to becoming BP so maybe that's all they saw her potential being. It's impossible to say, though what I do know is that Shuri being so ill-defined prior to the MCU only increased the chances she could get completely rewritten rather than Coogler following the source material.

Likewise, Shuri being so weakly developed increased the chances her character was wholly reinvented by Coates (who granted doesn't seem to care much about prior characterization anyway) but perhaps editorial would've had something to say. Shuri becoming BP before she actually had traits, feats, relationships, etc. not contingent on that role opened up the way to these type of inconsistencies. It's obviously not entirely responsible, but it's a contributing factor that deserves criticism and fixing going forward.

Hudlin doing a pretty crappy job developing Shuri before making her Bp is certainly not without it's problems... though again, had it not been one she likely would have ended up in limbo and not used at all. You can certainly criticize his call, but if it's literally the best option available I'm not sure what else you can really say.

[MindofShadow]

We don't know what Disney wanted. Shuri wasn't worth much prior to becoming BP so maybe that's all they saw her potential being. It's impossible to say, though what I do know is that Shuri being so ill-defined prior to the MCU only increased the chances she could get completely rewritten rather than Coogler following the source material.

Likewise, Shuri being so weakly developed increased the chances her character was wholly reinvented by Coates (who granted doesn't seem to care much about prior characterization anyway) but perhaps editorial would've had something to say. Shuri becoming BP before she actually had traits, feats, relationships, etc. not contingent on that role opened up the way to these type of inconsistencies. It's obviously not entirely responsible, but it's a contributing factor that deserves criticism and fixing going forward.

MCU Shuri is more a gender bent Taku than Shuri

[Marvell2100]

It doesn't matter what Hudlin did with Shuri, Coates was just going to do what he wanted to do with her anyway.

And how did that workout for Shuri? Only Black Panther readers know who Griot is and that went away right after super genius MCU Shuri.

Anyway, back to BP....don't know if this has been posted. https://bleedingcool.com/comics/ta-n...clude-in-2021/

Read the synopsis for #25. Looks like the same repeated lines over and over. And now we have to wait until next year. Crap.

[Blind Wedjat]

All I'm saying is, this is an unprecedented situation that a lot of studios haven't had to deal with before. Marvel certainly has never had to deal with this before. We have to keep that in mind in what we're suggesting. Coogler could choose to walk away right now and I even though I wouldn't like it. I would understand it. We have to consider that he might not want to recast. He knew Chadwick for real, unlike us. That means a lot more.

I am also careful to not go around suggesting that Shuri, or Nakia, or whoever take over. Letitia might not feel ready to step into those shoes. Lupita might not want to do it. Danai might not want to do it. Winston or Daniel might not want to either. It's become clear that Chadwick's death took them by surprise the same way it did for us. And they also knew him. That matters.

Again about recasting: it's not as simple as suggesting an actor. Some of them might not want to do it right now (unless you're a narcissist like Omari Hardwick). That's a lot of pressure and expectations. A lot of people I've seen have brought up John David Washington. Sure, he's a decent choice, but he's someone who tried his best to avoid being accused of benefitting from nepotism in his career. You're now asking him to go after someone who passed away. He might not want to go through the entire press circuit having to deal with questions about the comparisons or about Chadwick and honouring him. I don't think anyone would, and they would have to want to do it for the recast to actually happen.

This isn't a Howard/Cheadle or Norton/Ruffalo situation. The former guys left due to differences they had with Marvel and they never made much of an impact. Chadwick unfortunately died and even before this he left a huge impact. It's not even a Ledger Joker situation because he died before the film came out and and he was a supporting character with a complete story and use. It's different and we have to realise that.

[TheCat]

I'll say this about recasting T'Challa in the MCU...I personally think Disney SHOULD recast T'Challa. Because so far, he already "died" in his solo movie, then was "resurrected" later in the movie and reclaimed his kingdom, THEN died FOR REAL when he got snapped by Thanos in Infinity War, then got resurrected FOR REAL when he came back through the portal in End Game, thus regaining his kingdom. It would look extremely foolish for Disney to now kill the character off YET AGAIN and thereby have him lose his kingdom YET AGAIN. How many times are they going to kill this black man?

Also, if Disney does not recast T'Challa, then they would be setting up a dangerous precedence, because God forbid, what if other actors and actresses portraying major characters in the MCU pass away? Are they not going to recast those characters and kill those characters off as well, especially if those characters' story arcs aren't complete? If they do, it would look odd. If they don't recast T'Challa, but recast those other major characters, it would also look odd.

In addition, T'Challa himself in the MCU was/is a major inspiration to a lot of people because of the Black Panther movie, and I don't feel as though you permanently kill off a character like that, knowing how important he is to a lot of people, especially kids.

I also think it's odd that some people on certain sites can't fathom having T'Challa be portrayed by anyone other than Chadwick Boseman. It's definitely sad that Chadwick has transitioned, but to act as though no other black man can ever portray T'Challa because that actor might not be as good at it as Chadwick was, is baffling to me. Because now we're talking about denying other black actors the opportunity to portray T'Challa, who is such an iconic character.

That's almost like saying, "Well, I loved the way this particular writer wrote Black Panther in his solo series, but since the writer passed away, I really can't see anyone else writing T'Challa as well as HE did, therefore, I don't think anyone else should write T'Challa in his own solo book, because the writing of T'Challa might not be as good. So let's replace T'Challa in his own book with Shuri, or another character!"

I completely agree. Tchalla has to be recast. His story and the mythology behind it has to continue.

[Ezyo1000]

Really, the only thing Hudlin could have done with Shuri which would have actually stuck is to make her exactly like she was in the movie, because any development in any other direction would likely just be tossed aside for the purposes of synergy anyways. And obviously Hudlin can't possibly know what direction the movie could take, that would simply not be possible.

No one can dispute that Hudlin couldn't have done a much better job developing Shuri... for the bulk of his run he clearly didn't give a dam about the character. I don't think she had a single light of dialogue at her brothers wedding. BUT even if he had developed her more, that development would have simply been tossed aside once the movie version hit... so we'd be where he are now regardless.

Hudlin did the only thing he could do for the character.... he brilliantly forced other writers to continue to use her by giving her the throne, guranteeing her further existance. Doing anything more would have been nice... but in all likelihood erased for movie synergy anyways.

No. Had Hudlin actually developed her, then it wouldn't of been thrown out because the MCU would of d a foundation to build for her. Basically other then Hickman she had zero personality, and even with Hickman she was basically just a more ruthless T'Challa with boobs. Had he gave her a clear direction and agency, they would of went that direction. Hell even Coates version had that been her when she was created would of transitioned to the MCU. She had no personality so they created one for her. I don't know where you think it would of been thrown away for movie synergy because the movies take the comic versions as a foundation

[MindofShadow]

It's different and we have to realise that.

I think Black Panther, the movie character, is different too though.

This would be much easier to simply write off a white male character. They are a everywhere. There is no "importance" to a white male character at all.

T'challa is literally the only leading black male. And that fact was played up by Marvel and everyone else to point too how important the character is to a whole demographic of people.

To shelve the character completely seems disingenuous. If he is sooooooooooooooo important, how can he be shelved? Would Chadwick really want to character written off with his death?

Your post is 100% true but there is definitely other sides to it. I don't think any side is wrong except for the people who are using the tragedy to push their agendas.

And I honestly wouldn't be stunned if Coogler bounced and moved on. A lot of his options kinda suck. If they don't recast, he has to re-write his entire script. If he wants to recast, he has to go through that (horrible) process. And it could be that coogler wants to do one thing and Disney wants to do another. Also, there is almost no way this movie meets its release date with this + covid. He might not want to be stuck in this limbo forever and may have another project he wants to work on.

[XPac]

No. Had Hudlin actually developed her, then it wouldn't of been thrown out because the MCU would of d a foundation to build for her. Basically other then Hickman she had zero personality, and even with Hickman she was basically just a more ruthless T'Challa with boobs. Had he gave her a clear direction and agency, they would of went that direction. Hell even Coates version had that been her when she was created would of transitioned to the MCU. She had no personality so they created one for her. I don't know where you think it would of been thrown away for movie synergy because the movies take the comic versions as a foundation

Again, see Hawkeye. He was a character with decades of development, but the mcu made him whatever he needed to be. Same thing with characters like Aunt May or Jane Foster or even Nakia (though I suppose you might stilk be right about Nakia ... well see).

[Marvell2100]

I think Black Panther, the movie character, is different too though.

This would be much easier to simply write off a white male character. They are a everywhere. There is no "importance" to a white male character at all.

T'challa is literally the only leading black male. And that fact was played up by Marvel and everyone else to point too how important the character is to a whole demographic of people.

To shelve the character completely seems disingenuous. If he is sooooooooooooooo important, how can he be shelved? Would Chadwick really want to character written off with his death?

Your post is 100% true but there is definitely other sides to it. I don't think any side is wrong except for the people who are using the tragedy to push their agendas.

Yeah, get rid of T'Challa from the MCU and you will definitely lose a majority(I'm thinking at least 60+%) of BP movie fans. And I said it before, not re-casting T'Challa does a disservice to Chadwick's work. People keep saying he's an inspiration in one sentence and then no one can follow him in the next. If he's an inspiration then he's inspiring people to walk in his footsteps and keep his work alive.

It's like saying "Barack Obama was the greatest Black President ever and he's a great inspiration! I don't ever want another Black President because they can't compare to Obama!"

[Marvell2100]

Again, see Hawkeye. He was a character with decades of development, but the mcu made him whatever he needed to be. Same thing with characters like Aunt May or Jane Foster or even Nakia (though I suppose you might stilk be right about Nakia ... well see).

MCU Hawkeye was based on the Ultimates Hawkeye, same as they did with a few other characters. That's why he's not like 616 Clint.

So there was no radical change in character.

[Ezyo1000]

All I'm saying is, this is an unprecedented situation that a lot of studios haven't had to deal with before. Marvel certainly has never had to deal with this before. We have to keep that in mind in what we're suggesting. Coogler could choose to walk away right now and I even though I wouldn't like it. I would understand it. We have to consider that he might not want to recast. He knew Chadwick for real, unlike us. That means a lot more.

I am also careful to not go around suggesting that Shuri, or Nakia, or whoever take over. Letitia might not feel ready to step into those shoes. Lupita might not want to do it. Danai might not want to do it. Winston or Daniel might not want to either. It's become clear that Chadwick's death took them by surprise the same way it did for us. And they also knew him. That matters.

Again about recasting: it's not as simple as suggesting an actor. Some of them might not want to do it right now (unless you're a narcissist like Omari Hardwick). That's a lot of pressure and expectations. A lot of people I've seen have brought up John David Washington. Sure, he's a decent choice, but he's someone who tried his best to avoid being accused of benefitting from nepotism in his career. You're now asking him to go after someone who passed away. He might not want to go through the entire press circuit having to deal with questions about the comparisons or about Chadwick and honouring him. I don't think anyone would, and they would have to want to do it for the recast to actually happen.

This isn't a Howard/Cheadle or Norton/Ruffalo situation. The former guys left due to differences they had with Marvel and they never made much of an impact. Chadwick unfortunately died and even before this he left a huge impact. It's not even a Ledger Joker situation because he died before the film came out and and he was a supporting character with a complete story and use. It's different and we have to realise that.

My honest to god opinion would be to recast.. BUT also push back the release date. Now is not the time to be making any decisions at all. They should be talking obviously. But the movie also wasn't slated to be released for another year and a half as well. But one thing is for certain. Like MOS said. T'Challa represents an entire demographic that hasn't been catered too in any capacity even close to BP.

His franchise hit on all the stuff Black people wanted to see. Black people in positions of power, no dysfunction but actual equality and respect between men and women. No racial stereotypes, and needing white savior's, having agency, feeling authentic and true to culture without feeling the western lense. And a hero we can look up to and inspire to be who is from a nation untouched by european influence.

He IS THE premier Black hero and it's his franchise. Marvel needs to put their money where their mouth is and treat him with the proper respect he deserves. But right now isn't the time to be making any decisions and frankly I am beyond annoyed that dumbass WGTC is out there spouting BS from their 'credible source' when it's clear they are talking out their ass and being super disrespectful by already pushing their agenda so soon after Chad's passing